Tough Love and Top Level Editors
I waited on pins and needles as my new editor, John Paine, read my novel. I was worried he would read it and tell me that is was garbage. Or that I couldn’t write. Yes, my self- doubt was kicking in again.
To occupy my time I delved into platform development. I started building my own Word Press site and writing blog posts as they came to me. (I’ll talk about the importance of platform-building in future posts.)
Finally after about month John was able to read my book and provide feedback. We talked for an hour and a half about the book. He followed up with a detailed written four-page editorial report. First off—he didn’t tell me the novel stunk or my writing was horrible. OK, so that was a good start.
John told me that the book’s concept was tremendous, the cast solid, the plot (after an initial false start) built steadily and was capped by an exciting climax scene. I didn’t realize it at the time, but these were pretty much the last words of praise I would receive from him until the re-write of the novel was complete.
I’m paraphrasing here, but what John told me was, “You aren’t paying me to tell you what is good about the book. So we are going to focus on what needs improvement.”
I was OK with that philosophy. I can handle some tough love.
In November of 2011 I had gone into this edit thinking John would make recommendations about where to cut the first part of the book. He might recommend a prologue and make some minor tweaks. My intent was to get the novel back into the hands of the interested agents as soon as possible. I thought we could do this by January 1st. After reading his editorial report, though, I knew there was a lot more work to be done.There were four main tenets of revision and two minor ones that needed to be fixed. These are my words and not John’s:
1. Lose the back story. I’ve talked about this before. But John reconfirmed what I already knew. This piece had to go. I just wasn’t sure how much. At first he mentioned 50 pages. I can tell you that we ended up cutting a lot more than that.
2. Sammy (a dog) needs to be a true character. I had this idea that I would break up Sammy’s pieces to give the reader a break from the two main characters. I had put his pieces in italics and they were generally short. I learned that this wasn’t a solid concept.
3. Stop skimming on the surface of scenes. I needed more details and more of the characters’ thoughts. Remember when I told you I had cut 14K words with reckless abandon before I sent the book to John? Yep, I really regretted that edit now. But that was only part of it—I needed some more in-depth writing.
4. Stop shuffling so quickly among plot lines. He was right—I did do this.
The other two smaller issues were that my ending was too drawn out and he thought a character should be in the book earlier than he was presently.
As I read through the comments from his editorial report I felt as if I were reading a report from a surgeon who was dissecting my novel. I guess that is why John was a successful “Book Doctor” for 15 years at Penguin.
I receive a lot of recommendations from folks about critique groups and beta readers. I certainly don’t discount their utility and would love to find a couple of trusted beta readers. However, I don’t see that as the best path to follow for me.
I get what folks are telling me, but here is the deal—John has been in the publishing industry working on manuscripts for 25 years. He has edited hundreds of books including many New York Times Best Sellers. You can’t replicate this level of experience and knowledge in your critique groups or beta readers. Sure he costs money, but so do the very best surgeons, lawyers and other professionals. Are you looking for a medical student to perform that critical surgery for you or do you want an experienced surgeon?
You get what you pay for in this life. I recommend that serious aspiring authors go find themselves an editor. I also believe that this shows agents that you are serious.
All right, let’s put it another way. A few years ago my wife and I had new countertops put into our house. With that came a new sink. I tried to hook up the sink and garbage disposal myself. I did a pretty good job but couldn’t get the last couple steps completed to prevent it from leaking. Sure, I could have had a committee of my buddies come over and we might have been able to fix it.
Or I could hire a professional plumber to come over. Since I already completed most of the work, I knew it wouldn’t cost me that much. But that professional would provide me the peace of mind to know, if I wasn’t home, the sink wouldn’t gush water on my wife. Maybe you are a plumber or have a close friend that is one. I am not and don’t. In my editor, I trusted.
John told me to focus on the last three major tenets and we would figure out the beginning later. For the next six weeks I spent every spare moment doing exactly what my editor recommended.
Has anyone else had to endure a major rewrite?
Am I wrong about critique groups and beta readers?
Are critique groups and beta readers better than editors? Why?
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25 comments on “Tough Love and Top Level Editors”
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Well, everyone’s path is different. That being said, your path wouldn’t work for me. Part of being in a critique group is learning the craft together. Working with other serious writers not only improves your work, but inspires you and keeps you going. Trusted writing partners are there to bounce ideas around with you, help you finesse rough spots, offer a shoulder when you get the numerous rejections, and they are a fresh set of eyes. Not only do they help you grow as a writer just by critiquing your work, but you learn about writing through critiquing their work. You learn about what works and what doesn’t. I wouldn’t pay an editor to go through my book unless I intended to go indie. Once you sell, you’re going to be edited yet again, and again, and again. It can be a grind. I wouldn’t give my critique partner for anything. It’s because of critique partners that I am published and agented. I guess you feel the same about your editing experience, but you paid for help. I don’t have that kind of disposable income. Plus, I cherish the trust and friendships that have been built through critiquing. To each his own. :0)
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Kevin Hanrahan says:
Hi Barb. I get what you are saying about a critique group inspiring you and encouraging you to keep going. I sort of equate that to having a workout buddy who pushes you to show up in the morning when you would rather be laying in bed. They help keep you accountable. I know I would much rather have a workout partner. Jeez when I put it like that maybe I am way off track here……
When I started working with an editor I felt like I was going through this intensive novel writing course. I guess that is what you do with your critique group but it is not so intensive. My trouble is and will continue to be time. I have an intensive full time job, a new baby, a blog and novel writings to manage….. o yeah…my wife would like some of my time as well!
I do see the merit in a critique group though….providing they are as skilled at this craft as you or more so….. I also like to find folks that are better than me so they can bring me up to their level. (Of course I return the favor for other folks!)
Funny you mentioning editing because my agent is editing my book right now! So that will be the third edit by a professional before edit has even been sold! But I know that if I hadn’t worked with an editor I wouldn’t have an agent or be in a position to begin looking to sell my first book.
I agree…you gotta find a system that works for you. I don’t think I have time for a critique group right now but I definitely want to find a couple beta readers. Do you have to pay beta readers?
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No, you don’t pay beta readers. Their function is simply to read the book and tell you whether they like it or not. I’m sure you can find a ton of beta readers. If I wasn’t under contract for six books to be completed in the next 2 years, I’d be a beta reader for you. Wait. I’d love to be a beta reader for you. What am I thinking!? I read all the time when I’m not writing. :0) I don’t use beta readers anymore, because I have editors up the wazoo, including my agent, my acquiring editor, developmental editor, and copy editor. Hah! Can’t wait until we can talk about that together. In fact, I can’t wait to read your book. I write romance with military elements. Yer probably not my audience… Although, maybe yer wife would like my new “Love from the Heartland” trilogy. Far From Perfect is the first, and it’s being released October 23rd. It’s the book you helped me with by answering my questions. :0) Oh, it’s the one where I put you in the acknowledgements section. I’ll send you a copy when they’re released if you want one.
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Hah! I just signed up two beta readers in one swoop! You and one of my former platoon leaders. Thanks Barbara. I’m still figuring out this whole publishing world! I am really focused on giving my editor my very best product this time….. no major rewrites…the better product he receives the better the book will end up. (my theory…w/ also cost less b/c it will take him less time!)
I can’t believe you don’t think I read Romance…that is my favorite Genre next to War books! Just kidding on both accounts! I would love a copy of your book Barbara…my wife isn’t a big reader but my Mom is! She was my reading role model as a kid! She is a reading machine!
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Ha. You made me laugh with the whole, “I can’t believe you don’t think I read romance!” thing. Deal. I’d love for your mother to have a copy. Once it’s out, we’ll arrange it.
My agent did a little bit of editing with the first book, but now I just send them directly to my acquiring editor. Just sent the 2nd in two days ago, and this morning I started writing the 3rd.
I love writing. How about you?
Give that baby boy a hug for me, and have a wonderful rest of the week, Lt. Col. Hanrahan.
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Gotta keep it real Barbara! You are very kind to offer…thank you.
My agent is editing my book now….. I am anxious to see what she is doing! You don’t rest do ya! I am searching for more time in the week to novel write. I make some modification in my life to accommodate some weekly editing and research!
People ask me why I write…. I tell them it is because I have to!
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So when you talk about platform building. Are you speaking more to building a custom blogging platform or are you talking about designing your own custom theme?
How do you build your online following?
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I first learned about this platform thing at the James River Writer’s Conference. A platform to me is an effective means to push your message out to the public. It can come in varying or multiple forms. I personally use twitter, facebook and my blog.
Steve Shaffer says: Hmm, don’t know about critique groups and beta readers but I have read commentary from authors like John Ringo that they have a group of tech support if you will. One of his books involved a HALO drop into mountains with snow cover. As he said (paraphrase from memory): I found out climbers don’t just wear a couple of layers of wool and leather boots anymore. He also had another tech support fill him in on the fine details of sniping for his story. When you start writing about things you aren’t an SME on, getting one is probably a good idea.
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You are so right Steve….you gotta have technical folks that will help you. Lucky for me I sat three feet from the United States Navy’s Military Dog Program Manager in Afghanistan for almost a year. I picked his brain on a daily basis….. I also run a lot of my info by current handlers that I know.
John Nolan just sent me some stuff directly from Afghanistan that I am putting into my second novel…… I am blessed in that area….. I have a lot of friends on the “inside”!
Kevin – I get what you’re saying, but I feel you also have to trust your instincts, and several of your points merely confirmed that you should do this.
When someone recommends a change to me, I’ll evaluate it in context of the overall book. If it makes sense, I’ll change it, but, and this will sound exceedingly arrogant, I’m as smart as the next guy. I’ve been reading and writing for more than 30 years now, so I know what works for me and the audience I want to reach. I’ve seen some edits that are terrible and would kill the story. Sometimes I get the idea that a lot of editors would prefer to be writers…it’s just that they don’t want to go through the hassle of writing the whole thing themselves.
If one person makes a suggestion that makes no sense to me, I usually leave it alone. If more than one makes the same recommendation, that’s when I sit up and take notice. Unfortunately, I’ve found that a lot of editors get VERY offended if you discount their advice after careful consideration.
This isn’t ego, but rather an understanding that I know the work as well. I’m not averse to changing, but I AM averse to making unnecessary changes based on only one opinion, especially if those changes make no sense to me.
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I do and don’t trust my instincts Russ. I think because I am new to this world I doubt myself at times. Plus what I like in a book may not be what is selling. (i.e…. I have no problem with slow starting books that build) I think second opinions….especially experienced ones are important. I also understand what you mean though…my editor is a great guy….he makes recommendations and leaves the decisions for me.
I think editing is a different skill set than writing. I’m sure some can do both…I’m sure some are better at editing than writing themselves….I would have to judge each editor on my own.
I think you know your work as well as an editor but you are not impartial. An editor is. Critique groups may or may not…..I’m sure it depends on the group. My editor hurt my feelings loads of time…..he doesn’t care. I like that!
Julia Hugo Rachel says: I hired a ghost writer. A defense journalist with 14 books and he knows what he is doing. Its’ our story, but he is writing. There is no way I could write a book! Wrong. I am writing a 2nd book, based on a hobby I have. I feel great writing technical information or op-eds & Blogs on a familiar subject, but am not equipped to write a book.
I want the story told. We are talking about saving millions of lives; the story deserves to be told and told “well”. I do not know what you paid the editor, but I believe as you. You get what you pay for.
Just delving into the story and actually telling it are causing a PTSD scenario. It is stressful to bare it all. Its’ truly a personal art.
We are self publishing. That should be interesting!
Best,
Julia
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Hi Julia. I looked into a Ghost Writer but these were my stories and I wanted to write them! Plus I wanted to learn how to write more better. (kidding!)
I respect everyone’s opinion….knew I could possible open myself up for backlash but hey…it’s my opinion. Though I have already learned something from others comments. That’s the point of this blog…… to learn!
Karen says: I just wish I could write. I have a BA in English Literature. All that means is that I can analyze, edit, critique, and possibly teach but I am not a writer. I admire you for your talent, Kevin. I look forward to publication
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I could use some of your talent Karen! I am kicking myself for not paying better attention in English class….. though I always did well when stories had to be written….grammer though…another story! Thanks Karen!
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Grammar = Spell/Grammar check in Microsoft Word
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I would be lossed without it Karen!
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Hi Kevin,
I completely agree with you on the point of critique groups (a) turning into a time sink and (b) resulting in far less than professional inputs that might possibly lead the inexperienced (like you) down a path of wasteful energy. Unfortunately, like Barbara, I just don’t have the spare cash to pay huge amounts to a high-priced editor like the one you landed.
I think a big part of the choice an Author makes depends as much on their ability to stop being a “writer” for a minute and turn into the businessperson known as an Author. There is a difference.
Personally, I do my first set of edits myself. However, i get Beta Readers to provide me with inputs. I do not, however, allow them to simply “comment at will.” that’s another time sink. Instead, I provide each with a specific set of questions to guide them through their reading of my book. I stress before, during and after they’re reading that this is not reading for pleasure; this task is WORK, they are assisting me in WORKING on this book. I’ll acknowledge them for that work but if they sign up, I expect them to take the task seriously and not screw around with my business. I mean this *IS* a business–and unlike you, I don’t have another income. This is how I live.
I also provide my editorial team (as I prefer to call them) with a set of conventions. I tell them where and how to write their feedback (e.g., use stickies in a PDF, place them down and to the right of the text to which they refer, include a segment of the sentence being discussed, be sure to avoid suggesting solutions if possible–instead describe the problem and why it *IS* a problem for you) I provide a schedule. I’ve even resorted to parceling out the book in pieces withholding one piece until the last one has been processed so no one just resorts to reading for pleasure. I find that my readers usually do.
In fact, since I ask them to read multiple times (once for content development changes–plotting, characters, story elements, once for pacing and a third time for proofreading) I tend to communicate with them often reminding them it’s not for fun, it’s WORK. I try to use both repeat readers and new readers because my writing voice actually becomes familiar to some readers very quickly.
I do not pay these readers. I either barter with them or they actually volunteer. I remind them repeatedly it’s not for fun but they still volunteer. I take this as an enormously flattering fact.
For my most-recent short story / novella I tried to pay one of them because she is starting an editorial service as a business and she is phenomenally good at this activity. She has a degree in psychology and is detail oriented as well as flexible and open-minded. She is professional and precise and I honestly believe if I paid her what I feel she is worth, I’d be in debt for the next 3 years. She donated the work and in the second piece of work I did, she was the only one I asked to edit me. She did a fabulous job. Her name is Cassie McCown of Gathering Leaves and I cannot recommend her enough though her business is definitely getting off the ground and she’ll be charging for her services
I think if a writer can step back from their work and actually be objective, they can perform their editing themselves. We still need feedback, though, beta readers as you say. The challenge is being able to NOT reply to the readers and instead, take in everything everyone says and then do what you feel is “right” for the book yourself. NOT what you want, necessarily, but not necessarily to please everyone else either. It’s a juggling act. I don’t think new writers can do this. I defintiely could NOT as recently as five (5) years ago. I kept trying to please everyone and lost my story as a result. Now I please no one–not even myself. I please the characters and the plot and the readers who are going to buy the book.
There’ve been a heck of a lot of opinions about my first book but the one, universal comment regardless of the opinions that come after it is that my writing is superior and the book was exceedingly well edited. These comments dont’ refer to “editing” so much as “proofreading” but I appreciated the fact that so many people use words like “polished” and “tight” in describing my writing. I worked very hard to tighten it and felt I still failed (because it was so long).
I’d like to be able to afford to hire an editor to do it all for me but I’d like to hire a PR firm, too As you know, I’m on Twitter and Facebook myself – under 3 different IDs for each of my 3 pen names! One of these days, I’ll hire a PR firm, right after I hire an editor
-sry
@webbiegrrl
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Wow Sarah. I’m gonna cut and paste your comments onto a word document. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences with beta readers.
I just cleared two hours a week for edit/ research and review what I wrote that week. So my first draft will be more polished. I also plan to take notes about themes…sub plots if you will. For my last book I knew there were lose end that needed to be tied up and allowed an editor to do this. I won’t do that this time. I will fix them.
How many beta readers to you use for a book? I really like how you stress the work part of it….. also the parceling out of the book is fabulous. This is work people….don’t think we are on a joy ride! I tried to get a few people to read my first book but they didn’t seem overly interested…… I don’t think they believed I was writing a book!
I should have kept trying! I know I can enlist some now…… I just gotta ask the right folks. When I wrote the first book I was in Afghanistan and sat right next to the top Military Working Dog guy in the Navy (Master Chief Thompson…..who is in the book) We also travelled all over the country together and he always patiently answered my questions. This time I’m not so lucky. I will need to find MWD handler beta readers for sure. I don’t think that will be hard though.
Objectivity is exactly right…… My editor said…basically anything that doesn’t move teh plot forward needs to be cut. Now descriptors…..scenery and such are of course still in the novel.
WHEN…yes when I sell my first book I will use John again…but this time the book will be ultra-polished already. I still believe my idea of ultra-polished and his will be different. He has edited thousands of books. I still believe you get what you pay for in this world. Also, I fully plan to hire a PR firm. That is of course when I get that huge signing boss- Hah! I gotta dream as well!
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Sarah emailed this comment to me b/c I was testing out a new spam blocker this morning that prevented her from posting it! Thanks for letting me know if was (not) working Sarah! I blocked you! LOL.
I try to make sure that I have an “odd” number of First Readers, 3 or 5 or 7. I used 8 for Conditioned Response, 2 were alternates and 1 was 50/50 on availability for the whole time – in the end only 5 fulfilled the whole process. The editing process for that book took me 8 months. The first four were spent “alone” and then 4 mos with the readers, the last 30 days or so just doing proofreading and tightening and adding in things from my little list of notes “to do if there’s time.” Ultimately, I decided to issue the best rather than the earliest novel I could.
I try to make sure there’s an odd number so I won’t “happen” to have any split reactions, even “votes” as it were. On When Minds Collide (the Phoenician Series Short Story / Novella I just released) I needed practically overnight responses because I had intended to get it out before 4th of July. I wanted to give it away FREE for the holiday weekend. Ah well. It didn’t come out until Aug. 1st but I got replies in 24 hrs by using Harper Collins Authonomy site to upload the book in pieces with questions at the end of each piece (chapter) I had 4 readers. All 4 had the exact same issues. It was pretty funny–and lucky.
I hate having a 50/50 split because then I have to trust my own gut and I am definitely not objective enough (yet). If 3 out of 5 feel “A” is the answer and the other 2 go with “B” or “C” then I look at “A” more heavily to see if I agree. Sometimes I come up with a “D” answer that is none of the above, but I weight my consideration of comments when a “majority” shares the same response–which you can only have with an odd number, not an even number.
For the only book I have out under my real name Dicky’s Story, I had only 2 readers, one of whom is Scots and gives incredibly helpful critiques but isn’t much help on the proofreading (duh, language barriers to my American English) and the other of whom was phenomenal at proofreading but didn’t really understand how to critique. I taught them both my system. Dicky’s Story was the first time either of them had ever read any of my work. I had a schedule to edit 20 chapters in 20 weeks, one a week, with 2 breaks (Christmas for them; I’m Jewish so I got a little ahead at that point, and again in February when I got to the end and was able to do 3 chapters in one swoop–the last 3 chapters have 1/3 of the story and are pretty much the way I wrote them in 2003, untouched in the 2005 edits or the 2011 edits)
Editing takes time, especially if you want to do it right. I suggest going through one time and NOT touching the words so much as the sentences, paragraphs, pages and chapters. Look at the plotting, the content, the development and pacing. That “book level” editing is developmental or content editing and what you pay lots of money for from a professional like you’ve got.
The next time you go through the book plan on looking at the book one chapter at a time or one page at a time, seeking out things to delete. Question every word, every paragraph, every little plot point. Is it really furthering the major plot of the book? Is it taking an interesting but not necessary side trip? Is it fleshed out enough or are you forgetting to “unpack” what you know in your brain for the reader who’s never met you before? You can ask a freelance “editor” to help you there but first readers can do that too – free.
The third pass is for proofreading and what I call “wordsmithing.” This is when you benefit from hiring a freelancer who (a) works cheap and (b) just proofreads and suggests word-level and sentence-level changes that they think will help the book overall. You have to be careful to insure you check their spelling and grammar–don’t assume they know just because they assert they know–but these proofreaders are fairly useful since you’ll have the book practically memorized at this point. You probably cannot and will not see your own typos. This is why many writers just set a book aside for 6 mos or a year to come back with “fresh eyes.” Personally, I haven’t got the patience for that. If I set a book aside it’s because I’m feeling lazy and don’t want to do the hard work I already determined it requires. I always have 3 to 5 projects “in process” and there is always something else I can work on to make my return to a piece “with fresh eyes.” It’s like eye bleach without the bleach
Please feel free to save my words but I urge you to contact people like well, ME at either of my Twitter IDs and @LindaTacconelli and other SAR or working dog people not necessarily in the MWD circles. Those of us who love dogs or who love working dogs and who understand dogs are both friends AND tools are the ones you want to read your stuff. I also urge you to find someone who likes dogs but thinks of them as pets and decorations for the home. THAT reader will give you the famous “Joe the Plumber” feedback
the uneducated and unbiased reactions. You need those, too.Good luck!
-sry
@webbiegrrl
@phoenicianbooks
p.s. why’d you create a new/second @Kevin_Hanrahan2 Twitter ID? Did @Kevin_Hanrahan get too full? get hacked? get lost? -
Wonderful advice on beta readers Sarah! Thanks for sharing! I am going to use it to develop my editing strategy!
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I agree about a good editor. For my first book I used all the things ‘they’ tell us to use: a Don Maass seminar, gotham Writers courses, critique groups. they helpoed, but not enough. The critique groups were too superficial and inexperienced. For my second book, I gritted my teeth and shelled out for a great editor, Elizabeth Lyon. For my $$$, I got a professional, vastly experienced editor. 40+ pages of comments and analysis plus an annotated ms. I knew I had certain problems but didn’t now what to do about them–she told me. I didn’t realize my scene structure was the reason parts of the book dragged–she ruthlessly pointed that out. She also told me the good things I did. I rewrote the book, taking it from 82000 words to 109,000, not the usual result of a stringent editing, but according to my beta readers, it’s a great book now. A really good editor is worth whatever you have to pay. Your book will be out there forever–so get it right before you publish. More aobut editing and so on on my blog bit.ly/NUOden
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Wow, great story Eileen! I couldn’t agree more with you about an editor (obviously).
They say that even the great writers are backed by great editors. I just don’t see the idea that……. you write a book, get some of your friends to help you edit it and then land an agent and publishing deal…..as being realistic. I guess if you have mad writing skills or a friend that does then you are the exception. I do see Barbara’s point though about working with other authors as helpful. Shared experiences are wonderful and quite helpful.
After I worked with an editor….my book pacing was spot on, prose was tight and all plots and sub plots were concise and hard hitting. There is no way I would have gotten to that high level of novel without my editor….. If you can without an editor then you have more skills than I.
I will definitely checkout your blog post Eileen! Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
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Well, everyone’s path is different. That being said, your path wouldn’t work for me. Part of being in a critique group is learning the craft together. Working with other serious writers not only improves your work, but inspires you and keeps you going. Trusted writing partners are there to bounce ideas around with you, help you finesse rough spots, offer a shoulder when you get the numerous rejections, and they are a fresh set of eyes. Not only do they help you grow as a writer just by critiquing your work, but you learn about writing through critiquing their work. You learn about what works and what doesn’t. I wouldn’t pay an editor to go through my book unless I intended to go indie. Once you sell, you’re going to be edited yet again, and again, and again. It can be a grind. I wouldn’t give my critique partner for anything. It’s because of critique partners that I am published and agented. I guess you feel the same about your editing experience, but you paid for help. I don’t have that kind of disposable income. Plus, I cherish the trust and friendships that have been built through critiquing. To each his own. :0)
Hi Barb. I get what you are saying about a critique group inspiring you and encouraging you to keep going. I sort of equate that to having a workout buddy who pushes you to show up in the morning when you would rather be laying in bed. They help keep you accountable. I know I would much rather have a workout partner. Jeez when I put it like that maybe I am way off track here……
When I started working with an editor I felt like I was going through this intensive novel writing course. I guess that is what you do with your critique group but it is not so intensive. My trouble is and will continue to be time. I have an intensive full time job, a new baby, a blog and novel writings to manage….. o yeah…my wife would like some of my time as well!
I do see the merit in a critique group though….providing they are as skilled at this craft as you or more so….. I also like to find folks that are better than me so they can bring me up to their level. (Of course I return the favor for other folks!)
Funny you mentioning editing because my agent is editing my book right now! So that will be the third edit by a professional before edit has even been sold! But I know that if I hadn’t worked with an editor I wouldn’t have an agent or be in a position to begin looking to sell my first book.
I agree…you gotta find a system that works for you. I don’t think I have time for a critique group right now but I definitely want to find a couple beta readers. Do you have to pay beta readers?
No, you don’t pay beta readers. Their function is simply to read the book and tell you whether they like it or not. I’m sure you can find a ton of beta readers. If I wasn’t under contract for six books to be completed in the next 2 years, I’d be a beta reader for you. Wait. I’d love to be a beta reader for you. What am I thinking!? I read all the time when I’m not writing. :0) I don’t use beta readers anymore, because I have editors up the wazoo, including my agent, my acquiring editor, developmental editor, and copy editor. Hah! Can’t wait until we can talk about that together. In fact, I can’t wait to read your book. I write romance with military elements. Yer probably not my audience… Although, maybe yer wife would like my new “Love from the Heartland” trilogy. Far From Perfect is the first, and it’s being released October 23rd. It’s the book you helped me with by answering my questions. :0) Oh, it’s the one where I put you in the acknowledgements section. I’ll send you a copy when they’re released if you want one.
Hah! I just signed up two beta readers in one swoop! You and one of my former platoon leaders. Thanks Barbara. I’m still figuring out this whole publishing world! I am really focused on giving my editor my very best product this time….. no major rewrites…the better product he receives the better the book will end up. (my theory…w/ also cost less b/c it will take him less time!)
I can’t believe you don’t think I read Romance…that is my favorite Genre next to War books! Just kidding on both accounts! I would love a copy of your book Barbara…my wife isn’t a big reader but my Mom is! She was my reading role model as a kid! She is a reading machine!
Ha. You made me laugh with the whole, “I can’t believe you don’t think I read romance!” thing. Deal. I’d love for your mother to have a copy. Once it’s out, we’ll arrange it.
My agent did a little bit of editing with the first book, but now I just send them directly to my acquiring editor. Just sent the 2nd in two days ago, and this morning I started writing the 3rd.
I love writing. How about you?
Give that baby boy a hug for me, and have a wonderful rest of the week, Lt. Col. Hanrahan.
Gotta keep it real Barbara! You are very kind to offer…thank you.
My agent is editing my book now….. I am anxious to see what she is doing! You don’t rest do ya! I am searching for more time in the week to novel write. I make some modification in my life to accommodate some weekly editing and research!
People ask me why I write…. I tell them it is because I have to!
So when you talk about platform building. Are you speaking more to building a custom blogging platform or are you talking about designing your own custom theme?
How do you build your online following?
I first learned about this platform thing at the James River Writer’s Conference. A platform to me is an effective means to push your message out to the public. It can come in varying or multiple forms. I personally use twitter, facebook and my blog.
Hmm, don’t know about critique groups and beta readers but I have read commentary from authors like John Ringo that they have a group of tech support if you will. One of his books involved a HALO drop into mountains with snow cover. As he said (paraphrase from memory): I found out climbers don’t just wear a couple of layers of wool and leather boots anymore. He also had another tech support fill him in on the fine details of sniping for his story. When you start writing about things you aren’t an SME on, getting one is probably a good idea.
You are so right Steve….you gotta have technical folks that will help you. Lucky for me I sat three feet from the United States Navy’s Military Dog Program Manager in Afghanistan for almost a year. I picked his brain on a daily basis….. I also run a lot of my info by current handlers that I know.
John Nolan just sent me some stuff directly from Afghanistan that I am putting into my second novel…… I am blessed in that area….. I have a lot of friends on the “inside”!
Kevin – I get what you’re saying, but I feel you also have to trust your instincts, and several of your points merely confirmed that you should do this.
When someone recommends a change to me, I’ll evaluate it in context of the overall book. If it makes sense, I’ll change it, but, and this will sound exceedingly arrogant, I’m as smart as the next guy. I’ve been reading and writing for more than 30 years now, so I know what works for me and the audience I want to reach. I’ve seen some edits that are terrible and would kill the story. Sometimes I get the idea that a lot of editors would prefer to be writers…it’s just that they don’t want to go through the hassle of writing the whole thing themselves.
If one person makes a suggestion that makes no sense to me, I usually leave it alone. If more than one makes the same recommendation, that’s when I sit up and take notice. Unfortunately, I’ve found that a lot of editors get VERY offended if you discount their advice after careful consideration.
This isn’t ego, but rather an understanding that I know the work as well. I’m not averse to changing, but I AM averse to making unnecessary changes based on only one opinion, especially if those changes make no sense to me.
I do and don’t trust my instincts Russ. I think because I am new to this world I doubt myself at times. Plus what I like in a book may not be what is selling. (i.e…. I have no problem with slow starting books that build) I think second opinions….especially experienced ones are important. I also understand what you mean though…my editor is a great guy….he makes recommendations and leaves the decisions for me.
I think editing is a different skill set than writing. I’m sure some can do both…I’m sure some are better at editing than writing themselves….I would have to judge each editor on my own.
I think you know your work as well as an editor but you are not impartial. An editor is. Critique groups may or may not…..I’m sure it depends on the group. My editor hurt my feelings loads of time…..he doesn’t care. I like that!
I hired a ghost writer. A defense journalist with 14 books and he knows what he is doing. Its’ our story, but he is writing. There is no way I could write a book! Wrong. I am writing a 2nd book, based on a hobby I have. I feel great writing technical information or op-eds & Blogs on a familiar subject, but am not equipped to write a book.
I want the story told. We are talking about saving millions of lives; the story deserves to be told and told “well”. I do not know what you paid the editor, but I believe as you. You get what you pay for.
Just delving into the story and actually telling it are causing a PTSD scenario. It is stressful to bare it all. Its’ truly a personal art.
We are self publishing. That should be interesting!
Best,
Julia
Hi Julia. I looked into a Ghost Writer but these were my stories and I wanted to write them! Plus I wanted to learn how to write more better. (kidding!)
I respect everyone’s opinion….knew I could possible open myself up for backlash but hey…it’s my opinion. Though I have already learned something from others comments. That’s the point of this blog…… to learn!
I just wish I could write. I have a BA in English Literature. All that means is that I can analyze, edit, critique, and possibly teach but I am not a writer. I admire you for your talent, Kevin. I look forward to publication
I could use some of your talent Karen! I am kicking myself for not paying better attention in English class….. though I always did well when stories had to be written….grammer though…another story! Thanks Karen!
Grammar = Spell/Grammar check in Microsoft Word
I would be lossed without it Karen!
Hi Kevin,
I completely agree with you on the point of critique groups (a) turning into a time sink and (b) resulting in far less than professional inputs that might possibly lead the inexperienced (like you) down a path of wasteful energy. Unfortunately, like Barbara, I just don’t have the spare cash to pay huge amounts to a high-priced editor like the one you landed.
I think a big part of the choice an Author makes depends as much on their ability to stop being a “writer” for a minute and turn into the businessperson known as an Author. There is a difference.
Personally, I do my first set of edits myself. However, i get Beta Readers to provide me with inputs. I do not, however, allow them to simply “comment at will.” that’s another time sink. Instead, I provide each with a specific set of questions to guide them through their reading of my book. I stress before, during and after they’re reading that this is not reading for pleasure; this task is WORK, they are assisting me in WORKING on this book. I’ll acknowledge them for that work but if they sign up, I expect them to take the task seriously and not screw around with my business. I mean this *IS* a business–and unlike you, I don’t have another income. This is how I live.
I also provide my editorial team (as I prefer to call them) with a set of conventions. I tell them where and how to write their feedback (e.g., use stickies in a PDF, place them down and to the right of the text to which they refer, include a segment of the sentence being discussed, be sure to avoid suggesting solutions if possible–instead describe the problem and why it *IS* a problem for you) I provide a schedule. I’ve even resorted to parceling out the book in pieces withholding one piece until the last one has been processed so no one just resorts to reading for pleasure. I find that my readers usually do.
In fact, since I ask them to read multiple times (once for content development changes–plotting, characters, story elements, once for pacing and a third time for proofreading) I tend to communicate with them often reminding them it’s not for fun, it’s WORK. I try to use both repeat readers and new readers because my writing voice actually becomes familiar to some readers very quickly.
I do not pay these readers. I either barter with them or they actually volunteer. I remind them repeatedly it’s not for fun but they still volunteer. I take this as an enormously flattering fact.
For my most-recent short story / novella I tried to pay one of them because she is starting an editorial service as a business and she is phenomenally good at this activity. She has a degree in psychology and is detail oriented as well as flexible and open-minded. She is professional and precise and I honestly believe if I paid her what I feel she is worth, I’d be in debt for the next 3 years. She donated the work and in the second piece of work I did, she was the only one I asked to edit me. She did a fabulous job. Her name is Cassie McCown of Gathering Leaves and I cannot recommend her enough though her business is definitely getting off the ground and she’ll be charging for her services
I think if a writer can step back from their work and actually be objective, they can perform their editing themselves. We still need feedback, though, beta readers as you say. The challenge is being able to NOT reply to the readers and instead, take in everything everyone says and then do what you feel is “right” for the book yourself. NOT what you want, necessarily, but not necessarily to please everyone else either. It’s a juggling act. I don’t think new writers can do this. I defintiely could NOT as recently as five (5) years ago. I kept trying to please everyone and lost my story as a result. Now I please no one–not even myself. I please the characters and the plot and the readers who are going to buy the book.
There’ve been a heck of a lot of opinions about my first book but the one, universal comment regardless of the opinions that come after it is that my writing is superior and the book was exceedingly well edited. These comments dont’ refer to “editing” so much as “proofreading” but I appreciated the fact that so many people use words like “polished” and “tight” in describing my writing. I worked very hard to tighten it and felt I still failed (because it was so long).
I’d like to be able to afford to hire an editor to do it all for me but I’d like to hire a PR firm, too
As you know, I’m on Twitter and Facebook myself – under 3 different IDs for each of my 3 pen names! One of these days, I’ll hire a PR firm, right after I hire an editor 
-sry
@webbiegrrl
Wow Sarah. I’m gonna cut and paste your comments onto a word document. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences with beta readers.
I just cleared two hours a week for edit/ research and review what I wrote that week. So my first draft will be more polished. I also plan to take notes about themes…sub plots if you will. For my last book I knew there were lose end that needed to be tied up and allowed an editor to do this. I won’t do that this time. I will fix them.
How many beta readers to you use for a book? I really like how you stress the work part of it….. also the parceling out of the book is fabulous. This is work people….don’t think we are on a joy ride! I tried to get a few people to read my first book but they didn’t seem overly interested…… I don’t think they believed I was writing a book!
I should have kept trying! I know I can enlist some now…… I just gotta ask the right folks. When I wrote the first book I was in Afghanistan and sat right next to the top Military Working Dog guy in the Navy (Master Chief Thompson…..who is in the book) We also travelled all over the country together and he always patiently answered my questions. This time I’m not so lucky. I will need to find MWD handler beta readers for sure. I don’t think that will be hard though.
Objectivity is exactly right…… My editor said…basically anything that doesn’t move teh plot forward needs to be cut. Now descriptors…..scenery and such are of course still in the novel.
WHEN…yes when I sell my first book I will use John again…but this time the book will be ultra-polished already. I still believe my idea of ultra-polished and his will be different. He has edited thousands of books. I still believe you get what you pay for in this world. Also, I fully plan to hire a PR firm. That is of course when I get that huge signing boss- Hah! I gotta dream as well!
Sarah emailed this comment to me b/c I was testing out a new spam blocker this morning that prevented her from posting it! Thanks for letting me know if was (not) working Sarah! I blocked you! LOL.
I try to make sure that I have an “odd” number of First Readers, 3 or 5 or 7. I used 8 for Conditioned Response, 2 were alternates and 1 was 50/50 on availability for the whole time – in the end only 5 fulfilled the whole process. The editing process for that book took me 8 months. The first four were spent “alone” and then 4 mos with the readers, the last 30 days or so just doing proofreading and tightening and adding in things from my little list of notes “to do if there’s time.” Ultimately, I decided to issue the best rather than the earliest novel I could.
I try to make sure there’s an odd number so I won’t “happen” to have any split reactions, even “votes” as it were. On When Minds Collide (the Phoenician Series Short Story / Novella I just released) I needed practically overnight responses because I had intended to get it out before 4th of July. I wanted to give it away FREE for the holiday weekend. Ah well. It didn’t come out until Aug. 1st but I got replies in 24 hrs by using Harper Collins Authonomy site to upload the book in pieces with questions at the end of each piece (chapter) I had 4 readers. All 4 had the exact same issues. It was pretty funny–and lucky.
I hate having a 50/50 split because then I have to trust my own gut and I am definitely not objective enough (yet). If 3 out of 5 feel “A” is the answer and the other 2 go with “B” or “C” then I look at “A” more heavily to see if I agree. Sometimes I come up with a “D” answer that is none of the above, but I weight my consideration of comments when a “majority” shares the same response–which you can only have with an odd number, not an even number.
For the only book I have out under my real name Dicky’s Story, I had only 2 readers, one of whom is Scots and gives incredibly helpful critiques but isn’t much help on the proofreading (duh, language barriers to my American English) and the other of whom was phenomenal at proofreading but didn’t really understand how to critique. I taught them both my system. Dicky’s Story was the first time either of them had ever read any of my work. I had a schedule to edit 20 chapters in 20 weeks, one a week, with 2 breaks (Christmas for them; I’m Jewish so I got a little ahead at that point, and again in February when I got to the end and was able to do 3 chapters in one swoop–the last 3 chapters have 1/3 of the story and are pretty much the way I wrote them in 2003, untouched in the 2005 edits or the 2011 edits)
Editing takes time, especially if you want to do it right. I suggest going through one time and NOT touching the words so much as the sentences, paragraphs, pages and chapters. Look at the plotting, the content, the development and pacing. That “book level” editing is developmental or content editing and what you pay lots of money for from a professional like you’ve got.
The next time you go through the book plan on looking at the book one chapter at a time or one page at a time, seeking out things to delete. Question every word, every paragraph, every little plot point. Is it really furthering the major plot of the book? Is it taking an interesting but not necessary side trip? Is it fleshed out enough or are you forgetting to “unpack” what you know in your brain for the reader who’s never met you before? You can ask a freelance “editor” to help you there but first readers can do that too – free.
The third pass is for proofreading and what I call “wordsmithing.” This is when you benefit from hiring a freelancer who (a) works cheap and (b) just proofreads and suggests word-level and sentence-level changes that they think will help the book overall. You have to be careful to insure you check their spelling and grammar–don’t assume they know just because they assert they know–but these proofreaders are fairly useful since you’ll have the book practically memorized at this point. You probably cannot and will not see your own typos. This is why many writers just set a book aside for 6 mos or a year to come back with “fresh eyes.” Personally, I haven’t got the patience for that. If I set a book aside it’s because I’m feeling lazy and don’t want to do the hard work I already determined it requires. I always have 3 to 5 projects “in process” and there is always something else I can work on to make my return to a piece “with fresh eyes.” It’s like eye bleach without the bleach
Please feel free to save my words but I urge you to contact people like well, ME at either of my Twitter IDs and @LindaTacconelli and other SAR or working dog people not necessarily in the MWD circles. Those of us who love dogs or who love working dogs and who understand dogs are both friends AND tools are the ones you want to read your stuff. I also urge you to find someone who likes dogs but thinks of them as pets and decorations for the home. THAT reader will give you the famous “Joe the Plumber” feedback
the uneducated and unbiased reactions. You need those, too.
Good luck!
-sry
@webbiegrrl
@phoenicianbooks
p.s. why’d you create a new/second @Kevin_Hanrahan2 Twitter ID? Did @Kevin_Hanrahan get too full? get hacked? get lost?
Wonderful advice on beta readers Sarah! Thanks for sharing! I am going to use it to develop my editing strategy!
I agree about a good editor. For my first book I used all the things ‘they’ tell us to use: a Don Maass seminar, gotham Writers courses, critique groups. they helpoed, but not enough. The critique groups were too superficial and inexperienced. For my second book, I gritted my teeth and shelled out for a great editor, Elizabeth Lyon. For my $$$, I got a professional, vastly experienced editor. 40+ pages of comments and analysis plus an annotated ms. I knew I had certain problems but didn’t now what to do about them–she told me. I didn’t realize my scene structure was the reason parts of the book dragged–she ruthlessly pointed that out. She also told me the good things I did. I rewrote the book, taking it from 82000 words to 109,000, not the usual result of a stringent editing, but according to my beta readers, it’s a great book now. A really good editor is worth whatever you have to pay. Your book will be out there forever–so get it right before you publish. More aobut editing and so on on my blog bit.ly/NUOden
Wow, great story Eileen! I couldn’t agree more with you about an editor (obviously).
They say that even the great writers are backed by great editors. I just don’t see the idea that……. you write a book, get some of your friends to help you edit it and then land an agent and publishing deal…..as being realistic. I guess if you have mad writing skills or a friend that does then you are the exception.
I do see Barbara’s point though about working with other authors as helpful. Shared experiences are wonderful and quite helpful.
After I worked with an editor….my book pacing was spot on, prose was tight and all plots and sub plots were concise and hard hitting. There is no way I would have gotten to that high level of novel without my editor….. If you can without an editor then you have more skills than I.
I will definitely checkout your blog post Eileen! Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
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