Should You Hire an Editor or Join a Critique Group? (Part I)
O my goodness did I receive some outrage from my post on Tough Love and Top Flight Editors a while back. I think that folks thought I was “slamming” critique groups. I wasn’t but will provide you my thoughts now.
But to ensure we provide you a holistic view of the subject I’ve asked my colleague and staunch critique group supporter, Barbara Longley, to join me in this discussion. Barbara is the incredibly talented author of Heart Of The Druid Laird- Carina Press, and she has a new trilogy coming through Montlake Publishing beginning with Far From Perfect releasing October 23rd. To read excerpts of her work, you can visit her website at this link.
Anyway, enough about Barbara….let’s talk about what I think…….
KEVIN: Critique groups are a waste of resources. To me resources equal time, effort and money. I’m not complaining but I easily put in 60 hours a week at work. I put another 15 to 20 hours for writing, 5 hours for social media. (I tweet way too much on my commute to work though).
Then I try to maximize every other second I have available to for my new baby boy and wife. When in the world would I ever have time to meet with a group of kind hearted folks and listen as they talk about their writing? Maybe, just maybe I would get a chance to talk about my own writing? Thanks but no thanks. Just the thought of driving to the group exhausts me!
Do they serve wine at these critique groups?
When I have the time to focus on my writing I want the person I am working with to also be focused on my writing! Pay an editor and you have their time. Yes, I get it….editors aren’t cheap. Well you can find some cheap ones but again you are just wasting your time. I worked with my editor through phone and email…it was quite convenient and on my terms.
I’m a Soldier in the United States Army so you know I’m not rich. But my writing is important enough to me that I sacrifice other things because I value professional advice. Wait….hold on…….I’ll talk about that next.
All right…I’m gonna let Barbara speak because frankly I am scared that she will yell at me if I don’t.
BARBARA: Before I rant, I figured people might be interested in hearing how you and I have connected, Kevin. The trilogy coming out through Montlake Romance focuses on wounded warriors returning home from Iraq or Afghanistan and finding their happily ever after through the healing power of love. (Sappy, I know, but that’s who I am.) I don’t do the super heroic, “special ops on secret missions” veteran characters. I know they exist, and I have the greatest respect for them, but I’m more interested in the regular Joe’s experience.
Anyway, during the research part of the trilogy, I started reading Kevin’s amazing blog about soldiers who are handlers for military working dogs, and the bonds they form. Love it. I started leaving comments, and we connected. We’re also both on Twitter. Kevin very graciously answered some of my military questions, and we’ve been talking back and forth ever since.
Just between you and me, readers, it makes no difference to me how Kevin’s book (Paws on the Ground) gets on the shelves. I just want to freaking read it!
OK. My rant: First, I have to say that I also work a full time day job, plus I raised two kids on my own while working on my masters and writing my first novel, so I get the whole “time is a limited resource” thing. I just don’t agree with it. If something is important enough, you make time. As a writer, I cannot think of a single greater resource than other serious minded writers. There is no greater resource. Period. That’s my position in a nutshell. And, your description of how a critique group works is nothing like what happens, not in my groups anyway.
Depending on how often we get together, here’s how it goes: Prior to our meeting, we exchange chapters. We read each other’s work, make notes, critiques, etc. Then we get together and go page by page through each other’s chapter, explaining what didn’t work, what did, pointing out inconsistencies, characterization/motivation issues, line edits, etc. In other words, if you’re my CP, I’d talk about your work, not mine. Then it would be your turn to talk about my work, not yours. It’s very focused and serious. We get down to business. We rock. Then, I go home with all those marvelous notes and make my novel better than it was without that input. It’s GREAT. The only time we talk about our own work is if we request a brainstorming session when we’re stuck. In which case, we state the problem concisely, and it opens up for discussion after that.
Gah. I wouldn’t be able to tolerate what you described as a critique session either! BORING. Not what happens in the groups I’ve worked with. Ever. Never ever, Kevin. Not once. A writer would be quickly voted off the island in that case.
I work with authors who are committed to their careers and to improving their craft. When one enters into a critiquing agreement, a promise is made. When I am reading your writing, I am giving it my all. I am focusing on your writing 110%, and that includes editing. I do this because I trust my partners to do the same for me. I’ve worked with critique partners since I began writing with the serious intent of getting published, and I wouldn’t be published if I hadn’t opened myself up to that experience. I am eternally grateful to the authors I’ve worked with along the way, and I hope to always have CPs in my life.
My thoughts on unpublished authors hiring editors: There’s an inherent conflict of interest when you pay someone to give you “honest” feedback about your writing. Editors for hire want to please their clients, because it may lead to more money making editing gigs. Just think about it, Kevin. How brutally honest is a paid editor going to be about the marketability of a writer’s book when to do so might mean the job comes to an abrupt, unpaid end? Whereas, critique partners are on the same journey you are. They are learning what works, what doesn’t, developing their own unique voices and helping you to develop yours. It’s a partnership on equal terms. A good critique partner will be brutally honest. (In a respectful way, of course.) They don’t have the client relationship to worry about. They have only your best interests at heart.
Another reason why critique groups are so important: When creative minds get together, good things happen. Say you’re stuck on how to get your plot from point A to point C? Brainstorming with your CPs can open it up for you, give you fresh ideas and help you get unstuck. The brainstorming can be a springboard for so much, including reenergizing your sagging creativity. And yes, sometimes we’ve been known to include wine or beer in our brainstorming sessions.
There’s no bond like the bond you have with a trusted writing partner. You can’t “pay” for something like that. You have to earn it.
I do get that everyone’s path to publication is different. Your way works for you, and my way works for me, but I think you’re really missing out on one of the best things about writing, and that’s the partnerships and the bonds you form with other writers. Once you’re under contract, you’ll have an editor assigned to you. More than one, actually. They’ll do their job, and you’ll do yours, and the next book you might have completely different editors. You don’t choose them; you’re publisher does. Critique partners are writers you choose to work with. You’re all in it together to better yourselves and your craft. It simply cannot be beat. Critique groups decide how often to meet. Some get together once a week, others only once every few months. It’s entirely up to you and your group. It’s an invaluable resource, and a total growth experience.
Back to you, Kevin. I’m certain you’ll have lots to say.
Note: We broke this little spat into two posts. I won’t say it was because Barbara talks a lot….but that was in fact the reason. I forgot to ask Barb…do you think those underline sentences mean she is yelling at me?
So, do you side with Kevin or Barbara? Why?
What has worked for you?
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31 comments on “Should You Hire an Editor or Join a Critique Group? (Part I)”
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I have to side with Barbara on this one, though I don’t go to critique group meetings. Rather, I’ve found some great partners online and we exchange our work through email. It’s faster and saves time for me. Plus I get perspectives from people in other parts of the country and world.
An editor is one person’s opinion. When you release a book many, many people will read it (hopefully) and they are all going to look at your work in a different way. Don’t believe me? Just look at book reciews on Amazon. You’d think some people read an entirely different story than others. Having multiple critique partners helps give you an idea of what various readers might see and experience when they pick up your story. The really good ones aren’t easy to find, but they are out there. I met all mine just through chatting on online forums and blogs, but they share similar interests to me in that they want to be the best writers they can.
It does mean extra time has to be devoted to their work, in addition to yours, but I’ve found critiquing other people’s WIPs has made me a much better writer. Sometimes you notice a recurring problem in someone else’s manuscript and realize you’ve been doing the same thing, but never noticed it. Catching other people’s “telling” instead of “showing” has helped me to see it in my own work far better.
I could go on and on about the advantages of critique partners. There are a lot of good things to be said, but there is no way you can understand the concept fully until you try it for yourself. Editors should be the last step in your process after completing a draft, not the first. The more issues you have because you failed to use critique partners, the less of them editors can see because they are so bogged down by the numerous problems. Not just that, but one set of eyes does not catch everything. I’d say you need at least three, other than your own. I’m always amazed at how each person catches different issues than another does, but they are often all valid points to consider in revisions.
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Kevin Hanrahan says:
Hi Susan. Great comments, thank you. (Full disclosure…..I think Barb got to you and that is why you are siding with her…..no worries though!
I like you idea of catching flaws in your own writing by reading other’s work. That is a really great and I could definitely see how that would happen. But alas I would rather write than read someone else’s work. I have that lack of time issue…. Though I can retire from the Army in four years! Then I will certainly have more time!
I do believe what you say is true about using beta or critique readers. They are your second layer of the editorial process (each writer is the first)……then you use the editor to enhance your manuscript even more! That is the exact technique I plan to use for my second novel. So really I think you agree with me….or maybe it is the other way around but…… I think we can both agree that Barbara is wrong!
I can’t believe I just wrote that…..I thought I kept that written down just in my mind!
A great discussion that proves there’s not one right answer. Early in my career I learned some things about writing through critique groups, but they also take way more time than an editor. In addition, it takes effort and time to create a well-run critique group that functions productively but it’s do-able.
As I had more money, I hired editors to get feedback. Even once I became an editor and book writing coach myself, I still hired an editor on occasion because sometimes you need someone from the outside to look at something and see what it needs. I’ve never had the experience of an editor not being honest, Barbara. I have had an editor suggest changes that just didn’t resonate with me. So, just because you hire an editor–and even if they’re good at what they do–their advice may or may not work for you and that is a risk you take. But most of the time, you’ll get plenty of valuable feedback from an editor and it will be much more efficient use of time. If you have plenty of time or you want that social interaction, by all means use a critique group, but if time is scarce, I agree with Kevin that an editor is going to be more efficient–and often have more expertise/experience in your particular genre if you’ve hired carefully.
Some tips?
- Do ask for references and ask those references for strengths and weaknesses or anything they were not pleased about.
- You can often hire someone to give you feedback on one chapter or 10 pages to get a sense of whether they are a good fit before hiring them for the whole project.
- Trust your instincts.
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Hi Lisa. Thanks for your great comments and advice! Feedback, experienced eyes and efficiency are all reasons I went with an editor.
As a new author I need to put my best foot forward. My writing needs to be professional and polished or it won’t have a chance with an agent or publishers. This is another reason I went with an experienced editor….peace of mind!
I agree with both of you, but in a different way.
Kevin (may I call you Kevin?), an editor is a great resource. I had 4 different editors for my first 10 or 15 books, and I learned a lot from them. That’s the key point there: I LEARNED from them. I absorbed their critiques and suggestions and tried to implement what I learned, so that my last 5 or 6 books had zero editing, or very, very minimal. So an editor is a great thing as long as you don’t lean on the editor, you learn from the editor.
Barb, I agree that critique partners are great but I disagree that it should be a group. Like Kevin, I just have a limited amount of time, and I don’t want to devote my precious free time to others. However, I think a reading by another person and input from another person is invaluable, so I have a critique partner/beta reader.
We used to get together once a week at a local bookstore and talk writing — what’s going on in the business, who had a new release, what books we’ve read, then we’d get down to going over our writing. Sometimes it was a chapter, sometimes it was a scene, sometimes it was just plot work. But we focused on the writing.
Since I’ve moved, we Skype at least once a week and we’re in touch by email every day. We provide each other with support, encouragement, bounce ideas off of each other. When my books are ready to send to my editor, she reads them first and looks for “Speed Bumps” — those things that make a reader stop and say, “that doesn’t make sense” or “that doesn’t ring true” or “that’s stupid”. She does an online critique (using Track Changes in Word), sends the file to me, and I consider her comments and decide what needs to be changed.
NOTE that this works for me because I have 25 books under my belt and I think I know my craft by now. I still need an editor or objective reader, though, someone to read through what I did and tell me if it makes sense. I could NOT spend time with a group that requires me to read and critique many chapters. Like you, I work a full-time, 40+/hr a week job and I have family and other commitments. I appreciate what I get from my critique partner, but I could not appreciate a group on a regular basis. Once a year I get together with other writers for a retreat and that is very energizing. If I had to do that on a weekly basis, I think it would drain me.
So I think a combination of the two is perfect, if you can swing it!
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Hi JL. Welcome to the site. Thank you for sharing your vast experience with us all! Of course you can call me Kevin!
I alluded to this in my post about Top flight editors….. which sparked me to write this post…..which sparked me to get into this squabble with Barb…..OK, OK, back to my point!
I couldn’t agree more with you about the learning aspect of working with an editor. I interviewed several very experienced editors (all recommended to me by agents) and I went with John Paine for a couple different reason. Though the main reason was that one of his goals is to make you a better writer. He forced me to do the work, to learn and grow as a writer.
I am currently writing my second novel and every step of the way John is in the back of my head…….
What is the reaction to that action?
I need an in depth description here!
How does this scene move the plot along?
Don’t jump into someone else’s’ head!
etc, etc, etc!I’m not going to lie here…I’m taking your great comments as a victory for my position! My wife says I have selective hearing…..I think for this post I will have selective reading!
Susan, JL and Lisa, thanks for weighing in. JL, I don’t have a group anymore either. I have one writing partner. I kind of miss having a “group,” but working with one trusted partner is a godsend. Things change. We evolve and learn. Who knows what I’ll be doing in the future. But for now, I stand by my opinion.
I am more inclined to agree with Kevin. I’ve been in several critique groups and I find that a lot of the people are frustrated editors and go overboard on their criticism. Many times I’ve felt that the negative comments came from stylistic differences rather than serious flaws in the writing. For instance there is now a push to take out all the connectors like ‘and’ and ‘the’ as well as adverbs–adjectives are also being thrown out willy-nilly. Spare is one thing but I’m not Hemingway and I don’t want to write like that.
I very much disagree with Barbara about editors wanting to please because they’re being paid. Both of mine were stringent in their criticism and helped with several large problems in my novel.
Everyone has an opinion and a style and for me I would rather keep my work close to the vest until it’s completed and then hand it over to a professional–there’s a major difference between that and six other writers who may or may not know what they’re doing. Yes, I suppose if picked very carefully groups might work. I’ve had luck working with one other writer who I respect–that way there’s more time for me.
Great post! lots of food for thought…
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Hi Nikki! If you find the right editor….they aren’t begging for work! John told me before we started something like, “Your final product is a reflection of how well I do my job. Reputation is important in this business. We will forever be linked.”
I also worry about that whole book by committee thing. Groups dynamics are also very challenging to manage…… do you have someone who thinks they know it all, a grammar fanatic, someone who believes a book should have only one POV…..will they force their beliefs onto your writing? Guess what? I don’t ever want to find out! OMG…I’m ranting……OK, thanks for the thoughtful comment Nikki!
Nikki, yeah, I kinda threw that comment about editors being paid as a conflict of interest mostly to get a rise out of Kevin. :0) I’ve had excellent editors during my publishing career, and an editors reputation is based on the thorough, non-biased job they do. Sometimes for the sake of argument, I just throw stuff out there.
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Ha! I knew it Barbara! You are just a trouble maker!
Though I think in the next part of this argument I repay the favor!
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Barbara–the entire post was very thought provoking and what I like about these discussions is how it clarifies my own thought process-thanks for that!
I can come at this discussion from two viewpoints since I’m an editor (publisher) and an author. I think you’re both right. Both are invaluable resources and help an author. But, a critique group should never be a stand in for an editor.
As an author, I have several critique partners that I work with and each are fabulous. As Barbara says, they can help me out before I’m even done writing, with plot points, character indiosyncrasies, etc. And I wouldn’t think of subbing any of my work without having at least one CP go over it. But then it’s turned over to an editor.
The editor is responsible for going through and catching not only any of the above mentioned flaws that got past my CPs (not that there are ever many) but also the grammar mishaps. A good editor helps tighten the writing and present a polished product. I would never publish anything (either self or through a publisher) that had not had the eyes of a competent editor on it. I’ve had things published through small presses who’s editors I wasn’t as confident in, so I paid an editor I know to go over my work before I even subbed it to them.
I now own a small press and if I have a piece published in an anthology we put out, I hire another editor to do my story. I’m an editor and still know I need a fresh, trained set of eyes on my work. No one can completely edit their own work to the degree of professionalism that a trained editor can, even another editor. Our press focuses on the quality of the work we put out and are slowly earning a reputation among the industry for that.
And I used to be a freelance editor, still work with some authors outside of my press. I can tell you that I never held back once on a job. If the work was shoddy,or I didn’t think it was ready to be seen by the public (let’s face it, an editor can only do so much without rewriting the author’s work), I always told the author. The way to avoid this problem is to do a sample chapter. You can generally tell by the first chapter if the work is going to be salvageable or not. If I thought it wasn’t, I was up front with the author. Some heeded the advice, some didn’t. It would be unethical to hype the author up if you didn’t believe in their work.
Okay, I rambled. I guess I can’t stress enough how important an editor is for self published authors. But that doesn’t mean I don’t think critique groups are just as valuable. CPs can help a writer perfect their craft, so that they have a solid piece of work to present to an editor, whether freelance or with a press.
Stacey
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Hi Stacey. Welcome and thanks for joining and giving us your thoughts!
I think I mentioned this before but what you describe as your technique is where I am heading next. (I am progressing….at least I think I am!) I am beginning to line up beta/ critique folks for my second novel. My first actually went through two edits so I sort of got that two levels on checking after it left my hands.My issue with a CP is once again time. I want all the attention the little boy cried….actually he just did….. our five month old is not happy that I put him in his little Bumbo seat….he looked tired after dancing to Sesame Street though! (yes we have a seat belt for your concerned folks!) Why is my Pandora now set to Sesame Street…….wooooo….. OK, OK, I’m back!
You can see where my after work time goes. My pre work goes to writing…….. My work time…well, the little fella needs to eat right? I just don’t have time to focus on other’s work…… heck…I barely squeeze any reading time in for enjoyment anymore!
Haaahhhh….you rambled? Look at me! Again, thanks for your advice. I think several layers and edits (to a point and with folks you trust… I also want experience!) is a good thing. But then you use your own instincts and roll with what ya got! Who knows your work better than you?
I noticed how you completely glossed over the comments made in agreement with my take on this. Your wife is correct. You wear selective blinders. :0) And, yes. I am a trouble maker.
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Did someone say something here? I was busy researching for my fantasy football draft! I mean working….no wait it is still lunch time… I can mess around on the computer at lunch time! Let’s call it a metal break!
Thanks for weighing in on both sides, Stacey! I agree with you. We writers need both.
And, I agree with you, Kevin. Your family has to be your priority over critique partners. Your little guy only gets one shot at childhood, and you and mom are the center of his little world.
I prefer critique groups(or beta readers, if you like) because they’re usually more representative of the audience I’m trying to reach. Plus, I put more stock in multiple people’s opinions. If one editor says something needs fixing, I can write that off as one person’s opinion, but if more than one person in my critique group points out roughly the same thing, that’s something to pay attention to.
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Hi Russ. I was waiting for you to chime in on this one! I understand what you are saying about one person’s eyes/ viewpoint but I just don’t think you can discount the experience level of a seasoned editor. If you find the right editor…they are professionally trained and have the experience to take your book to a new level. I don’t see a CG doing that.
Another issue I have with CG is that there are too many cooks in the kitchen is ….well there are too many cooks! I am not writing a book by committee here.
Though I do believe that an editor is only part of the process. It is by far the most valuable and important piece.
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We’ll have to disagree on this one. An editor, while a good tool, is but one set of eyes. Given what I’ve seen on shelves, I’m not real sure they’re any more qualified than I am to judge what a “good” book is.
A critique group helps let me know if I’m hitting the target I’m aiming for, but it’s important to remember that, as the writer, it’s YOUR work. Critiques, whether from a group or an editor, should be taken as advice, not as command. I did a post on this not too long ago.
http://rdmeyerwrites.blogspot.com/2012/08/grains-of-salt.html
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Hey sorry Russ….. I really enjoyed that piece your wrote a couple weeks ago….it is very relevant to this discussion. I meant to leave a comment but was OBE. For you non military folks that is a little military jargon for ya! It means overcome by events!
This is the first time we’ve agreed to disagree of an issue Russ!
I still stand firm….I will take a trained and seasoned editor before a critique group. Take ten folks in your CG and see how many books they have edited……. My editor is a professional editor…no one is your CG does editing for a living. Editing and writing are two different skill sets.
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I do not the think the two are mutually exclusive.
I like having a critique group in part for the social aspects of it (read: actual socializing, not social-media-socializing). Writing is by nature a solo activity and I think lots of people burn out when they don’t have a good community in which to share it. I find it important to get together with other writers. Having a critique group motivates me, keeps me going.
Plus, as others have mentioned, more opinions are a good thing. How many editors can I actually afford to pay in order to get a decent sampling of critiques? What if I’ve chosen the wrong editor and put all my eggs in his basket? And so on…
Also, I think writing in a vacuum doesn’t allow you to check yourself as much along the way (ie: is what you’re writing brilliant, or is so full of holes it might as well be a cheesecloth?).
But, once the piece of work is solid and has gone through multiple drafts (including once through the critique group), hiring an editor is still doable. While I may bring a first draft to a critique group, I certainly wouldn’t do the same with an editor. I would want my work pretty polished, pretty solid before I invest money in having someone I’m paying look at it.
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Hi Elle. Thanks for joining us and giving us your thoughts.
I think for me it comes down to time. I actually think I would enjoy sitting with other writers and discussing the craft. But I would rather do “tummy time” with my five month old in my spare time! I just can’t commit to something and not follow through…. it is not in my nature…. I would be poor CG member because I have no time in my life to be an active and contributing member.
Honestly I wrote my first book in a vacuum and it turned out great after some revision and re-write with my editor. I am doing the same for my 2d book but am enlisted beta readers prior to submission to my editor….. looks like we have similar thoughts on the correct path!
Ha! Another vote my way. Thanks for weighing in, RD. I’m in total agreement. Critique groups and beta readers are an excellent marketing test.
The social is important to me, too. You’re right, SeeElleOh, writing is a solitary endeavor, and we can become stale and develop tunnel vision when left to long with no one’s input but our own. I’m blessed. Most of my very good friends are writers, but my kids are grown and gone, and I’m single. I do have the time to put into my writing community. Maybe someday Kevin will have time, and he’ll come to realize what he’s been missing. :0)
[...] a published author in order to debate with the delightful Barbara Longley about the merit of critique groups and why an editor is better. (Still my [...]
I’ve benefited from both critique, (Critique Circle online) and a paid editor, (Caroline Upcher, an experienced freelance editor) Without BOTH, my debut manuscript would never have been picked up by Crimson Romance (it comes out in two weeks). I think this is a you-got-chocolate-in-my-peanut-butter situation. Reese’s is the answer.
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Hi Rachel. Congrats on your book, that is fabulous! I think you are right- they both have their merits and can be most useful. One just has to find what works for them.
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I have to side with Barbara on this one, though I don’t go to critique group meetings. Rather, I’ve found some great partners online and we exchange our work through email. It’s faster and saves time for me. Plus I get perspectives from people in other parts of the country and world.
An editor is one person’s opinion. When you release a book many, many people will read it (hopefully) and they are all going to look at your work in a different way. Don’t believe me? Just look at book reciews on Amazon. You’d think some people read an entirely different story than others. Having multiple critique partners helps give you an idea of what various readers might see and experience when they pick up your story. The really good ones aren’t easy to find, but they are out there. I met all mine just through chatting on online forums and blogs, but they share similar interests to me in that they want to be the best writers they can.
It does mean extra time has to be devoted to their work, in addition to yours, but I’ve found critiquing other people’s WIPs has made me a much better writer. Sometimes you notice a recurring problem in someone else’s manuscript and realize you’ve been doing the same thing, but never noticed it. Catching other people’s “telling” instead of “showing” has helped me to see it in my own work far better.
I could go on and on about the advantages of critique partners. There are a lot of good things to be said, but there is no way you can understand the concept fully until you try it for yourself. Editors should be the last step in your process after completing a draft, not the first. The more issues you have because you failed to use critique partners, the less of them editors can see because they are so bogged down by the numerous problems. Not just that, but one set of eyes does not catch everything. I’d say you need at least three, other than your own. I’m always amazed at how each person catches different issues than another does, but they are often all valid points to consider in revisions.
Hi Susan. Great comments, thank you. (Full disclosure…..I think Barb got to you and that is why you are siding with her…..no worries though!
I like you idea of catching flaws in your own writing by reading other’s work. That is a really great and I could definitely see how that would happen. But alas I would rather write than read someone else’s work. I have that lack of time issue…. Though I can retire from the Army in four years! Then I will certainly have more time!
I do believe what you say is true about using beta or critique readers. They are your second layer of the editorial process (each writer is the first)……then you use the editor to enhance your manuscript even more! That is the exact technique I plan to use for my second novel. So really I think you agree with me….or maybe it is the other way around but…… I think we can both agree that Barbara is wrong!
I can’t believe I just wrote that…..I thought I kept that written down just in my mind!
A great discussion that proves there’s not one right answer. Early in my career I learned some things about writing through critique groups, but they also take way more time than an editor. In addition, it takes effort and time to create a well-run critique group that functions productively but it’s do-able.
As I had more money, I hired editors to get feedback. Even once I became an editor and book writing coach myself, I still hired an editor on occasion because sometimes you need someone from the outside to look at something and see what it needs. I’ve never had the experience of an editor not being honest, Barbara. I have had an editor suggest changes that just didn’t resonate with me. So, just because you hire an editor–and even if they’re good at what they do–their advice may or may not work for you and that is a risk you take. But most of the time, you’ll get plenty of valuable feedback from an editor and it will be much more efficient use of time. If you have plenty of time or you want that social interaction, by all means use a critique group, but if time is scarce, I agree with Kevin that an editor is going to be more efficient–and often have more expertise/experience in your particular genre if you’ve hired carefully.
Some tips?
- Do ask for references and ask those references for strengths and weaknesses or anything they were not pleased about.
- You can often hire someone to give you feedback on one chapter or 10 pages to get a sense of whether they are a good fit before hiring them for the whole project.
- Trust your instincts.
Hi Lisa. Thanks for your great comments and advice! Feedback, experienced eyes and efficiency are all reasons I went with an editor.
As a new author I need to put my best foot forward. My writing needs to be professional and polished or it won’t have a chance with an agent or publishers. This is another reason I went with an experienced editor….peace of mind!
I agree with both of you, but in a different way.
Kevin (may I call you Kevin?), an editor is a great resource. I had 4 different editors for my first 10 or 15 books, and I learned a lot from them. That’s the key point there: I LEARNED from them. I absorbed their critiques and suggestions and tried to implement what I learned, so that my last 5 or 6 books had zero editing, or very, very minimal. So an editor is a great thing as long as you don’t lean on the editor, you learn from the editor.
Barb, I agree that critique partners are great but I disagree that it should be a group. Like Kevin, I just have a limited amount of time, and I don’t want to devote my precious free time to others. However, I think a reading by another person and input from another person is invaluable, so I have a critique partner/beta reader.
We used to get together once a week at a local bookstore and talk writing — what’s going on in the business, who had a new release, what books we’ve read, then we’d get down to going over our writing. Sometimes it was a chapter, sometimes it was a scene, sometimes it was just plot work. But we focused on the writing.
Since I’ve moved, we Skype at least once a week and we’re in touch by email every day. We provide each other with support, encouragement, bounce ideas off of each other. When my books are ready to send to my editor, she reads them first and looks for “Speed Bumps” — those things that make a reader stop and say, “that doesn’t make sense” or “that doesn’t ring true” or “that’s stupid”. She does an online critique (using Track Changes in Word), sends the file to me, and I consider her comments and decide what needs to be changed.
NOTE that this works for me because I have 25 books under my belt and I think I know my craft by now. I still need an editor or objective reader, though, someone to read through what I did and tell me if it makes sense. I could NOT spend time with a group that requires me to read and critique many chapters. Like you, I work a full-time, 40+/hr a week job and I have family and other commitments. I appreciate what I get from my critique partner, but I could not appreciate a group on a regular basis. Once a year I get together with other writers for a retreat and that is very energizing. If I had to do that on a weekly basis, I think it would drain me.
So I think a combination of the two is perfect, if you can swing it!
Hi JL. Welcome to the site. Thank you for sharing your vast experience with us all! Of course you can call me Kevin!
I alluded to this in my post about Top flight editors….. which sparked me to write this post…..which sparked me to get into this squabble with Barb…..OK, OK, back to my point!
I couldn’t agree more with you about the learning aspect of working with an editor. I interviewed several very experienced editors (all recommended to me by agents) and I went with John Paine for a couple different reason. Though the main reason was that one of his goals is to make you a better writer. He forced me to do the work, to learn and grow as a writer.
I am currently writing my second novel and every step of the way John is in the back of my head…….
What is the reaction to that action?
I need an in depth description here!
How does this scene move the plot along?
Don’t jump into someone else’s’ head!
etc, etc, etc!
I’m not going to lie here…I’m taking your great comments as a victory for my position! My wife says I have selective hearing…..I think for this post I will have selective reading!
Susan, JL and Lisa, thanks for weighing in. JL, I don’t have a group anymore either. I have one writing partner. I kind of miss having a “group,” but working with one trusted partner is a godsend. Things change. We evolve and learn. Who knows what I’ll be doing in the future. But for now, I stand by my opinion.
I am more inclined to agree with Kevin. I’ve been in several critique groups and I find that a lot of the people are frustrated editors and go overboard on their criticism. Many times I’ve felt that the negative comments came from stylistic differences rather than serious flaws in the writing. For instance there is now a push to take out all the connectors like ‘and’ and ‘the’ as well as adverbs–adjectives are also being thrown out willy-nilly. Spare is one thing but I’m not Hemingway and I don’t want to write like that.
I very much disagree with Barbara about editors wanting to please because they’re being paid. Both of mine were stringent in their criticism and helped with several large problems in my novel.
Everyone has an opinion and a style and for me I would rather keep my work close to the vest until it’s completed and then hand it over to a professional–there’s a major difference between that and six other writers who may or may not know what they’re doing. Yes, I suppose if picked very carefully groups might work. I’ve had luck working with one other writer who I respect–that way there’s more time for me.
Great post! lots of food for thought…
Hi Nikki! If you find the right editor….they aren’t begging for work! John told me before we started something like, “Your final product is a reflection of how well I do my job. Reputation is important in this business. We will forever be linked.”
I also worry about that whole book by committee thing. Groups dynamics are also very challenging to manage…… do you have someone who thinks they know it all, a grammar fanatic, someone who believes a book should have only one POV…..will they force their beliefs onto your writing? Guess what? I don’t ever want to find out! OMG…I’m ranting……OK, thanks for the thoughtful comment Nikki!
Nikki, yeah, I kinda threw that comment about editors being paid as a conflict of interest mostly to get a rise out of Kevin. :0) I’ve had excellent editors during my publishing career, and an editors reputation is based on the thorough, non-biased job they do. Sometimes for the sake of argument, I just throw stuff out there.
Ha! I knew it Barbara! You are just a trouble maker!
Though I think in the next part of this argument I repay the favor!
Barbara–the entire post was very thought provoking and what I like about these discussions is how it clarifies my own thought process-thanks for that!
I can come at this discussion from two viewpoints since I’m an editor (publisher) and an author. I think you’re both right. Both are invaluable resources and help an author. But, a critique group should never be a stand in for an editor.
As an author, I have several critique partners that I work with and each are fabulous. As Barbara says, they can help me out before I’m even done writing, with plot points, character indiosyncrasies, etc. And I wouldn’t think of subbing any of my work without having at least one CP go over it. But then it’s turned over to an editor.
The editor is responsible for going through and catching not only any of the above mentioned flaws that got past my CPs (not that there are ever many) but also the grammar mishaps. A good editor helps tighten the writing and present a polished product. I would never publish anything (either self or through a publisher) that had not had the eyes of a competent editor on it. I’ve had things published through small presses who’s editors I wasn’t as confident in, so I paid an editor I know to go over my work before I even subbed it to them.
I now own a small press and if I have a piece published in an anthology we put out, I hire another editor to do my story. I’m an editor and still know I need a fresh, trained set of eyes on my work. No one can completely edit their own work to the degree of professionalism that a trained editor can, even another editor. Our press focuses on the quality of the work we put out and are slowly earning a reputation among the industry for that.
And I used to be a freelance editor, still work with some authors outside of my press. I can tell you that I never held back once on a job. If the work was shoddy,or I didn’t think it was ready to be seen by the public (let’s face it, an editor can only do so much without rewriting the author’s work), I always told the author. The way to avoid this problem is to do a sample chapter. You can generally tell by the first chapter if the work is going to be salvageable or not. If I thought it wasn’t, I was up front with the author. Some heeded the advice, some didn’t. It would be unethical to hype the author up if you didn’t believe in their work.
Okay, I rambled. I guess I can’t stress enough how important an editor is for self published authors. But that doesn’t mean I don’t think critique groups are just as valuable. CPs can help a writer perfect their craft, so that they have a solid piece of work to present to an editor, whether freelance or with a press.
Stacey
Hi Stacey. Welcome and thanks for joining and giving us your thoughts!
I think I mentioned this before but what you describe as your technique is where I am heading next. (I am progressing….at least I think I am!) I am beginning to line up beta/ critique folks for my second novel. My first actually went through two edits so I sort of got that two levels on checking after it left my hands.
My issue with a CP is once again time. I want all the attention the little boy cried….actually he just did….. our five month old is not happy that I put him in his little Bumbo seat….he looked tired after dancing to Sesame Street though! (yes we have a seat belt for your concerned folks!) Why is my Pandora now set to Sesame Street…….wooooo….. OK, OK, I’m back!
You can see where my after work time goes. My pre work goes to writing…….. My work time…well, the little fella needs to eat right? I just don’t have time to focus on other’s work…… heck…I barely squeeze any reading time in for enjoyment anymore!
Haaahhhh….you rambled? Look at me! Again, thanks for your advice. I think several layers and edits (to a point and with folks you trust… I also want experience!) is a good thing. But then you use your own instincts and roll with what ya got! Who knows your work better than you?
I noticed how you completely glossed over the comments made in agreement with my take on this. Your wife is correct. You wear selective blinders. :0) And, yes. I am a trouble maker.
Did someone say something here? I was busy researching for my fantasy football draft! I mean working….no wait it is still lunch time… I can mess around on the computer at lunch time! Let’s call it a metal break!
I rest my case.
Thanks for weighing in on both sides, Stacey! I agree with you. We writers need both.
And, I agree with you, Kevin. Your family has to be your priority over critique partners. Your little guy only gets one shot at childhood, and you and mom are the center of his little world.
I prefer critique groups(or beta readers, if you like) because they’re usually more representative of the audience I’m trying to reach. Plus, I put more stock in multiple people’s opinions. If one editor says something needs fixing, I can write that off as one person’s opinion, but if more than one person in my critique group points out roughly the same thing, that’s something to pay attention to.
Hi Russ. I was waiting for you to chime in on this one! I understand what you are saying about one person’s eyes/ viewpoint but I just don’t think you can discount the experience level of a seasoned editor. If you find the right editor…they are professionally trained and have the experience to take your book to a new level. I don’t see a CG doing that.
Another issue I have with CG is that there are too many cooks in the kitchen is ….well there are too many cooks! I am not writing a book by committee here.
Though I do believe that an editor is only part of the process. It is by far the most valuable and important piece.
We’ll have to disagree on this one. An editor, while a good tool, is but one set of eyes. Given what I’ve seen on shelves, I’m not real sure they’re any more qualified than I am to judge what a “good” book is.
A critique group helps let me know if I’m hitting the target I’m aiming for, but it’s important to remember that, as the writer, it’s YOUR work. Critiques, whether from a group or an editor, should be taken as advice, not as command. I did a post on this not too long ago.
http://rdmeyerwrites.blogspot.com/2012/08/grains-of-salt.html
Hey sorry Russ….. I really enjoyed that piece your wrote a couple weeks ago….it is very relevant to this discussion. I meant to leave a comment but was OBE. For you non military folks that is a little military jargon for ya! It means overcome by events!
This is the first time we’ve agreed to disagree of an issue Russ!
I still stand firm….I will take a trained and seasoned editor before a critique group. Take ten folks in your CG and see how many books they have edited……. My editor is a professional editor…no one is your CG does editing for a living. Editing and writing are two different skill sets.
I do not the think the two are mutually exclusive.
I like having a critique group in part for the social aspects of it (read: actual socializing, not social-media-socializing). Writing is by nature a solo activity and I think lots of people burn out when they don’t have a good community in which to share it. I find it important to get together with other writers. Having a critique group motivates me, keeps me going.
Plus, as others have mentioned, more opinions are a good thing. How many editors can I actually afford to pay in order to get a decent sampling of critiques? What if I’ve chosen the wrong editor and put all my eggs in his basket? And so on…
Also, I think writing in a vacuum doesn’t allow you to check yourself as much along the way (ie: is what you’re writing brilliant, or is so full of holes it might as well be a cheesecloth?).
But, once the piece of work is solid and has gone through multiple drafts (including once through the critique group), hiring an editor is still doable. While I may bring a first draft to a critique group, I certainly wouldn’t do the same with an editor. I would want my work pretty polished, pretty solid before I invest money in having someone I’m paying look at it.
Hi Elle. Thanks for joining us and giving us your thoughts.
I think for me it comes down to time. I actually think I would enjoy sitting with other writers and discussing the craft. But I would rather do “tummy time” with my five month old in my spare time! I just can’t commit to something and not follow through…. it is not in my nature…. I would be poor CG member because I have no time in my life to be an active and contributing member.
Honestly I wrote my first book in a vacuum and it turned out great after some revision and re-write with my editor. I am doing the same for my 2d book but am enlisted beta readers prior to submission to my editor….. looks like we have similar thoughts on the correct path!
Ha! Another vote my way. Thanks for weighing in, RD. I’m in total agreement. Critique groups and beta readers are an excellent marketing test.
The social is important to me, too. You’re right, SeeElleOh, writing is a solitary endeavor, and we can become stale and develop tunnel vision when left to long with no one’s input but our own. I’m blessed. Most of my very good friends are writers, but my kids are grown and gone, and I’m single. I do have the time to put into my writing community. Maybe someday Kevin will have time, and he’ll come to realize what he’s been missing. :0)
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I’ve benefited from both critique, (Critique Circle online) and a paid editor, (Caroline Upcher, an experienced freelance editor) Without BOTH, my debut manuscript would never have been picked up by Crimson Romance (it comes out in two weeks). I think this is a you-got-chocolate-in-my-peanut-butter situation. Reese’s is the answer.
Hi Rachel. Congrats on your book, that is fabulous! I think you are right- they both have their merits and can be most useful. One just has to find what works for them.